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Author Topic: what defines an unfair angle?  (Read 1579 times)

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Offline doc

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Re: what defines an unfair angle?
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2019, 11:38:15 am »
I mean, you can't really blame the current JB leaders for this. This rule was made back in 2017:

Except, yes you really can. When I got div of 1v1 I looked over the rules and told admins to stop enforcing all the dumb ones. You can't blame them for making rules, but you can 100% blame them for not changing them.

What is the point of a Terrorist rebelling and getting into the best position he can if he's just going to be slain 30 seconds after? The purpose of rebelling is to go against all rules they're being told, so why are they being enforced to make it fairer for the CTs?

Don't want people to hold the best angles they can? Don't let them rebel in the first place.

I agree completely, the only exception I would make to this is one-ways, they shouldn't be camping there for 30 seconds because CTs might not know where the one-way is.
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Offline yfts

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Re: what defines an unfair angle?
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2019, 11:49:42 am »
I mean, you can't really blame the current JB leaders for this. This rule was made back in 2017:
What is the point of a Terrorist rebelling and getting into the best position he can if he's just going to be slain 30 seconds after? The purpose of rebelling is to go against all rules they're being told, so why are they being enforced to make it fairer for the CTs?

Don't want people to hold the best angles they can? Don't let them rebel in the first place.

You guys seem to be forgetting the fact that this rule is also for CTs, and is more enforced if you're on CT (which is true because I play CT the most).

 I don't know why this topic is still up, the main topic was the issue with matthew's slay and that has been already resolved. So I don't think it was wise for the person who opened the thread to do that.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2019, 11:50:16 am by Fantaisie »

Offline Midnight

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Re: what defines an unfair angle?
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2019, 11:51:50 am »
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

He was blaming the current JB leaders for creating a rule that they didn't create. This rule, despite what people are saying, does have a purpose. They are doing what they can with the rules, as seen in the past two weeks, and threads like this do help them see what they should discuss in the next meetings, but they shouldn't be inherently blamed for something that they didn't see as an issue in the first place, as it wasn't complained about until now (at least, that I've seen).

This rule isn't just against T's, it's against CT's as well so I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that it's just about T's. One unfair angle that sticks out clearly is the area in bhop on dystopian. For those who haven't played the map, there's a secret area in surf that you can't see through unless you're inside. If you're inside, you can see everything like it's glass. This is an unfair angle that shouldn't be held, because it has such a wide view and makes it impossible for T's/CT's to kill the person, especially because it's not just a small box that they shoot from, it's a whole hallway.

The situation previously mentioned isn't an unfair angle in the slightest imo. Sure, there's only one entrance, but I believe there's a vent outside that can get you in unless I'm mistaken. This honestly is just a map flaw, there should be more ways into main cells, but angles like these are held all the time on spyvspy.

I don't know why it was enforced here, it shouldn't have been, and every "unfair angle" situation is different (one-ways, holding a corner, w/e). There obviously should be clarification on it, which is up to the JB divs to do at the next meeting. My point was just saying how a lot of the 'dumb rules' were put in place for a reason, and the JB rules are always changing with community feedback. There's no need to rag on the JB divs unless they are actually being useless, which they arent'.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2019, 04:43:23 pm by Midnightfluffy »

Offline $mac

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Re: what defines an unfair angle?
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2019, 12:43:20 pm »
The rule is dumb to begin with.

The rule should realistically only be for one-ways to prevent round stalling camping.

You shouldn't be slain for holding an entryway where running in would pretty much be death.
any angle outside of a 1 way is not an unfair angle imo, also I'm pretty sure this rule was added to stop rebelling T's from camping glass boxes and 1 ways until a T got bloodhound to lead the CT's to the rebelling T, giving the rebel an unfair advantage over the CT's. So outside of that situation you should not be slayed.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2019, 12:49:14 pm by $MaC »

Offline Noah.

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Re: what defines an unfair angle?
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2019, 01:35:44 pm »
Idk i think if, for example, you're spam knifing where the CT's teleport to on clouds out of main cells, that's pretty unfair.
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Re: what defines an unfair angle?
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2019, 02:07:06 pm »
I was there when we created the rule. It was intended to stop CT's/T's from just holding down an angle forever with no progress being made. For instance, if you go on jb_clouds and just sit in the glass box of armory forever, then the game never progresses. No CT is gonna risk peaking someone in a one-way glass box, and there is no way to armory that won't get you killed. Ultimately, we made this rule that would force the T to move from the spot and find a new spot/ angle. The rule just makes the game go by quicker and forces the T's and CT's alike to move around more, not really that bad of a rule, makes it a little harder to rebel in a lot of scenario's though.
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Offline Revolver Ross

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Re: what defines an unfair angle?
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2019, 03:58:01 pm »
I was there when we created the rule. It was intended to stop CT's/T's from just holding down an angle forever with no progress being made. For instance, if you go on jb_clouds and just sit in the glass box of armory forever, then the game never progresses. No CT is gonna risk peaking someone in a one-way glass box, and there is no way to armory that won't get you killed. Ultimately, we made this rule that would force the T to move from the spot and find a new spot/ angle. The rule just makes the game go by quicker and forces the T's and CT's alike to move around more, not really that bad of a rule, makes it a little harder to rebel in a lot of scenario's though.

You see kid, back in my day no one cried about that. The T getting there and doing that was okay with us old CT players because it was kind of like punishment for the CTs not fully checking cells or letting a rebelled get away. It was our punishment and as good CT’s it was now our job to find a way to win a round against all odds. So, this is where team play and coordination comes in, I remember in the past we’d coordinate everyone peaking at the same time shooting at the glass box, providing cover fire as a teammate made a run for the armory vent. Which could lead to us winning the round. The problem is not that it’s unfair and people can cry about it, it’s hat now a days no fucking CT team wants to work together and win against all odds. Everyone is just toxic as fuck.

And that. Is jailbreaks downfall for rule making. You have to make these rules because of the failure of those that are unable to work together and be creative

And to all the idiots discussing who's fault it is for having the rule exist, yes previous divs might have created it. But the responsibility and ownership falls onto those who pick up the current mantle to run the server. When you pick up the role as Div, all the responsibilities and previous actions done by older divs now rests on your shoulders, as it is now your job to fix and adjust anything that you feel was wrong.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 04:47:12 pm by Revolver Ross »
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Offline jordan

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Re: what defines an unfair angle?
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2019, 08:36:11 pm »
This has been a thing forever dude. Why is belittling the JB administration team (who isn't even responsible for it) you're go-to?
Your*
Please point to where I directly insulted the JB administration team. I suggested that whoever made this rule made a stupid decision, and they absolutely did. If it was you: you made a stupid decision.

There is no reason to get mad. Your response to this was childish and now you get to unlock it and let people call you out.
I disagree. My response is warranted. This is a rule that can be easily abused. There is no definition or example for any of the incredibly subjective terminology, and there should be. Whoever allowed this rule to be written failed to properly do their job.
I didn't lock the topic after I made the post. The intention is to get people to respond so this rule can be made better. Whether you approve of my method of doing so or not, does not matter to me in the slightest.

I realize you had to come up with something to respond with because the new e-girl you've moved on to made a response, but really? This was just pathetic.
Also, was that last part your attempt at moderating me? LOL. Ok buddy. If I wanted to lock the post, I would have locked it, and it would have stayed locked. :coolstorybob:
If not, I'm entirely confused as to what you attempted to accomplish with that.

Your response did not justify this rule existing at all, nor was it constructive in any way. You just shat out a long-form version of 'wah ur mean'.

I mean, you can't really blame the current JB leaders for this. This rule was made back in 2017:
I didn't. Point to where I said, "The current JB leaders are morons."
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

At least I can appreciate that your post attempted to be constructive, even though much of it is more long-form 'wah ur mean'.

While Jailbreak itself is supposed to be toxic, it shouldn't be toxic to the point where people feel they should leave. I don't know if you're overestimating the number of rules that have gotten added, but only one really got added within the past week, the others were editing rules that already existed.
The first part is true. It should be toxic, not unplayable. To the same tune, it shouldn't be so cushy the game is no longer fun. The latter is where JB is heading. I'm absolutely not overestimating the number of rules that have been added recently. Additionally, I was gone for a year for BCT/AIT, so those rules I also consider to be new. Perhaps not to the server, but certainly new to me. That should have been more clear, but I didn't make that connection originally. More on this below the separator.

The only rule that got added was: Warden Rule #18. Wardens may not pick a random T from the warden menu to get LR unless there is under 3 minutes left in the round, and 3 Ts left. Which while I haven't played JB in awhile, this was obviously causing an issue that was making players leave and server and as such a rule was made. If it wasn't causing an issue, this rule wouldn't have come up in the first place.
I am indifferent to this rule. While I don't think a round should be determined entirely to RNG or a similar system, I also think the ability should still exist. There should not be a time constraint set on this rule.
I think both of these quotes sum my sentiments up fairly accurately.
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Adding more regulation to a game just takes the fun away. Nobody likes tons of rules, in life and in games. I would use a real world example here, but it would be polarizing in some way, and given that you couldn't even handle not straw-manning my original post, it's not worth the effort. You guys have successfully over-regulated Jailbreak, and while, given the leadership in the past, I cannot say I am surprised, it is certainly a problem and there are people at all levels, active and not, who are at fault.

Jailbreak has been a fun gamemode in the past and has existed in a better state with fewer rules. Restricting minor things that players can do within Jailbreak will only cause the players to become more agitated with it's administration. A rule should never harm player experience, and we have rules which do exactly that.

Also, using de-pop as a justification for everything is retarded. That's incredibly subjective and you have no way of knowing if a certain action actually caused players to leave, or if they were going to leave anyway. Come with some real evidence or community feedback, or shut the fuck up. De-pop is a word used in place of a non-argument.

All of the rules added on 8/24 were common sense rules, that were discussed at the JB meeting and on these threads:
https://tangoworldwide.net/index.php?topic=66415.0
https://tangoworldwide.net/index.php?topic=65601.0
These were added for the sake of the admins, as people kept getting punished for "common sense" while newer players and older players alike didn't really know what that meant.

There were two rules put in here that weren't common sense, which are:

Added Warden Rule #17. When a pointer is placed down, it is implied for the Ts to go to it. (Simply state for the Ts to not go to a pointer if you want to reference something with a pointer) > Which was an issue mentioned for a long time, as there were people being toxic wardens with it and causing the server to depop, I believe there was also a thread about it is here. And:

Added CT Rule #26. On Clouds CTs may not go on top of cells until 9:15. > Which has already gotten removed due to community feedback, but this does show that the JB Administration team is trying, and they are listening to feedback.

The only other rules added semi-recently (meaning June) were Jump for LR being banned and Teamkilling being considered an act of rebelling. Everyone has their opinions on Jump for LR, I think it should've been a time-based rule instead of how it is now but that's always something that can be discussed later on.

As such, I don't really know what rules you're upset about? Besides for the unfair angle one of course, which has been a rule for years. There are dumber rules to be mad about, as dope mentioned, but those were created a long time ago (I believe also in 2017)

EDIT: Okay I can't find where the rule dope is mentioning got placed, but I'm assuming it must've been in the OG rules.
I'm not going to go through all of these, but I take issue with some of these rules as well. There will be a post in the future seeking community feedback regarding many of the rules on Jailbreak and what we all think can be done to fix them, as well as how we can get rid of the ones that harm player experience.

Quote from: Jailbreak MOTD
14. Ts and CTs may not camp armory or hold any angles, vents, or any choke points that is uncomfortable or unfair for the other team for more than 15 seconds. If players stay there for more than 15 seconds, they may be slapped, then eventually slain.
What is defined as being uncomfortable?
What is defined as being unfair?
If you can define it here, why does it remain undefined in the actual binding rule? A forum post for clarity is not a rule update.
Where are the examples of this?
Killing someone from behind is unfair by definition: they do not have a chance to attack back. Is this covered by the rule? In it's current state, technically yes.
Is a CT waiting for a T who is known to be rebelling and who's location is known considered holding an unfair angle?
Is this camping?
Why are rebels protected in this manner?
Why the arbitrary time limit?
Why can rebels not use the map to their advantage in the fullest extent?
What is the need for this rule to exist?
This is incredibly subjective and can be interpreted in an infinite amount of ways. This is why this is a shit rule, implemented in a lazy way.

an unfair angle is an angle that you have an advantage over your adversaries to such an extent that it makes it a lot more difficult for the opponent to find and/or kill you.
Isn't that the point of the game? You hold an angle that is most to your advantage so you can kill the enemy easier. Why is this a problem? Just like in competitive play, if an angle is used often enough, it will be learned, and checked, and suddenly it's not as much of a problem. Why are we taking away the reward of knowing a map well?
This is the point of the game. Players who understand positioning do this well. This is an utterly shit definition, and is further evidence to why this rule shouldn't exist. This definition doesn't solve anything. It doesn't tackle a specific issue. It simply states that if a player has difficulty in killing you, you are in the wrong.

In CS:GO, your head is more on the right side. Say, if you were peeking a corner, as the CT on the image, you can't see the T. It's how the corner is. His left side is sticking out, and he can't see the T. But the T can see the CT's left leg, and a bit of his left side. This is just how player-view angles works on CSGO. In the video, if you showed my POV, I only saw a little bit of him, and demo's are a little wonky with replaying situations like these. Matthew sets up and starts to sit at the corner at 6:10. I get killed around 6:00. Matthew gets slayed around 5:40, which makes his total camp ~30 sec. Regardless if it was a unfair angle or not, he was still camping and there are rules for these. I understand that the corner dilemma is just apart of the game. Sitting there for 30 seconds and taking out numerous CTs with that angle is still camping, and has grounds for a warn (which the admin handbook describes a slay/slap/mute/etc.)
You just described peeker's advantage, a mechanic in the game itself. Should we now punish players for using this? For playing the game the way it is meant to be played? For taking advantage of something intentionally added to the game? No. That is not improving the players' experience in any way.

A more stupid rule than this in my opinion though is forcing people who are not following orders to go kill counter-terrorists, I understand that this was made to avoid delaying but it is quite stupid to force someone who is rebelling, someone who shouldn't have to follow anything and can do what they like until the counter-terrorists kill him to have to go towards the counter-terrorists and not allowed to just run around the map doing nothing.
Yes, this rule is also stupid. A rebel should be able to do whatever they want. They are rebelling - intentionally not following the rules. Why are we making them conform to rules?

The rule is dumb to begin with.

The rule should realistically only be for one-ways to prevent round stalling camping.

You shouldn't be slain for holding an entryway where running in would pretty much be death.
While I believe camping is a problem, I do not believe a rebelling T using a 1-way to his advantage should be against the rules. That T earned that privilege by successfully rebelling.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
This analysis is somewhat accurate. While I do not blame the current administration for the rule's implementation, it is their job to continually review the rules and make improvements (not necessarily additions), and this was certainly looked over.
The rest of this I agree with.

You guys seem to be forgetting the fact that this rule is also for CTs, and is more enforced if you're on CT (which is true because I play CT the most).
I don't know why this topic is still up, the main topic was the issue with matthew's slay and that has been already resolved. So I don't think it was wise for the person who opened the thread to do that.
There should be more of a limitation on CT (rgs' example of one-ways) than on T.
This topic is an opportunity to talk about this rule and others. That is why it was unlocked.
Whether you think it was wise or not, I do not care.

He was blaming the current JB leaders for creating a rule that they didn't create.
BITCH WHERE?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
This rule absolutely does not achieve it's purpose. This rule was written lazily. Here follows another strawman argument in which you insinuate that I said the current JB administration is responsible for the rule (I literally asked who made it in my post but lol). Something not being complained about until now does not mean a problem does not exist.

Nobody has said this doesn't affect CTs. Strawman. Rebels should be able to abuse that.

These dumb rules may have been put in place for a reason, but they are still dumb rules written in a shitty way. Saying there is a reason does not justify the rules being bad. It's a non-argument.

Idk i think if, for example, you're spam knifing where the CT's teleport to on clouds out of main cells, that's pretty unfair.
It's pretty unfair that CTs start with guns, and Ts start with knives, but such is the nature of the game.
How did the T get to that teleport? Did they perhaps take a risk and rebel?
This is obviously a known thing. CTs can work together to limit it's effectiveness.

I was there when we created the rule. It was intended to stop CT's/T's from just holding down an angle forever with no progress being made. For instance, if you go on jb_clouds and just sit in the glass box of armory forever, then the game never progresses. No CT is gonna risk peaking someone in a one-way glass box, and there is no way to armory that won't get you killed. Ultimately, we made this rule that would force the T to move from the spot and find a new spot/ angle. The rule just makes the game go by quicker and forces the T's and CT's alike to move around more, not really that bad of a rule, makes it a little harder to rebel in a lot of scenario's though.
The rule's intention and implementation are two different things. A T can be told to stop delaying it is becomes a problem, that's up to the admin's discretion. This rule does not allow for that, and instead prevents a T from rebelling effectively. It harms the players' experience.
Why does a written rule need to be put in place for something an admin can obviously take care of.
Not everything needs to be written down. Making rules just creates more situations where they are unintentionally broken or misinterpreted. Regulation is not good.

I absolutely agree with @Revolver Ross.

Tl;dr - Shit rule, no definitions. Lazily implemented. Some of you can go fuck yourselves, and those same some of you cannot read.


Contrary to what has been stated by people who either cannot read, or choose not to, I appreciate the effort that has been made recently by the new JB administration team to fix some of the shitty rules, clarify old rules, and ensure new players understand what 'common-sense' actually is.
That being said, making a rule for every little thing, instead of coaching admins to solve situations using their discretion, is how you destroy a server.
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Offline doc

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    oreo

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Re: what defines an unfair angle?
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2019, 09:01:49 pm »
Oh man.. what is this thread anymore
You were bein a bitch so I bitch slapped you.

Rule 81. Player that is "bein' a bitch" will get you dropped and/or slapped and maybe killed.


Offline Project

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Re: what defines an unfair angle?
« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2019, 09:07:42 pm »
yikes, why contribute when everyone’s opinion was already shutdown by one ultimatum.

Overall the rule has its pros and cons, the rule itself puts either side at a disadvantage but takes away the fun from the late 2016 Jailbreak. Putting away the past, that doesn’t concern the present.

Common sense overall in this thread is differentiated by everyone here. Time to come to consensus with this overall.

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Offline yfts

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Re: what defines an unfair angle?
« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2019, 09:09:26 pm »
Can we please lock this thread? We are farther distancing ourselves from the main point of the thread. Most of the responses here are getting very paradoxical.

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Re: what defines an unfair angle?
« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2019, 09:12:02 pm »
Can we please lock this thread? We are farther distancing ourselves from the main point of the thread. Most of the responses here are getting very paradoxical.

The more feedback is very necessary to the event itself.
@jordan was overall defending himself in his own stance while providing essential and concerning feedback in general.

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Offline Noah.

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Re: what defines an unfair angle?
« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2019, 10:06:18 pm »
I mean, you can't really blame the current JB leaders for this. This rule was made back in 2017:
I didn't. Point to where I said, "The current JB leaders are morons."
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

You obviously didn't say exactly that, but come on, don't play dumb. This is what you said

Why the fuck is this a rule?
All these new JB rules coming out lately are retarded. The gamemode is supposed to be toxic. Wardens are supposed to trick players. You're supposed to be creative. This is taking the fun away from the gamemode.
So fucking stupid.
Who made this a rule?

Now, maybe you didn't mean exactly that, but this is how it reads to everybody else.
  • New rules come out
  • A post is made about a rule
  • You come into the post and say "all these new rules are retarded", "so stupid", and "who made this a rule?"
Is this not belittling to you? Can you legitimately say that this post is not a belittlement of the current administration team? You're fucking joking. You already went nuclear on this post, just admit you misspoke or fucking call out the JB team.


Idk i think if, for example, you're spam knifing where the CT's teleport to on clouds out of main cells, that's pretty unfair.
It's pretty unfair that CTs start with guns, and Ts start with knives, but such is the nature of the game.
How did the T get to that teleport? Did they perhaps take a risk and rebel?
This is obviously a known thing. CTs can work together to limit it's effectiveness.
It is NOT unfair that CTs start with guns and Ts start with guns. I can't tell if you're making fun of my point or just talking about "the nature of the game." T's heavily outnumber CTs, have numerous ways to rebel, and on certain maps these ways to rebel are made extremely easy. At face value, sure it's unfair, but look at the win/loss ratios and tell me it's unfair.

Something being "unfair" inherently means it's not fun. If one side has an extreme handicap because of how a map is structured, that should be limited. A T shouldn't be able to spam knife a teleporter because it is unfair to the CT. What if they didn't rebel to get there? What if it's a freeday and they're waiting behind a portal. What if the other CTs can't "limit the effectiveness" because they had to go somewhere else? It's not good to justify your point using specific scenarios, just like how using anecdotes aren't a good argument; they're easily shut down by another specific scenario or anecdote. A T waiting behind a teleporter is not just a "specific example" this shit happens every single freeday on jailbreak, and more often than not there is not a realistic way to deal with it. A CT could prefire the portal, but if they were to freeshoot someone who just happened to be there they would be 100% at fault, and no person would recommend them to do this for the problem of freekilling/shooting.

I'm also not sure if this is correct, but your gameme account here http://tangoworldwide.gameme.com/playerinfo/150918 shows you have 16 total hours on jailbreak. I hope that isn't right, but you sure do have a lot of strong opinions on this game mode.

tl;dr I respect you going nuclear, taking personal shots at Urbana and basically everyone else, but just know that if you were to NOT go nuclear people would respect your opinion and be more likely to listen to you. You may say "ah idc what people think about me" but if you're going to write a 1000 word response on a gaming forum I would hope you thought it's worth your time.
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Online Urbaena

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Re: what defines an unfair angle?
« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2019, 10:30:55 pm »
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

You have a superiority complex, you're arrogant, and an asshole.

The rule is stupid, you responded like a child (as usual).

I am glad you wasted your time writing a wall of text just make yourself look like more of a retard.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 10:37:13 pm by Urbaena »

Offline jordan

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Re: what defines an unfair angle?
« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2019, 10:42:03 pm »
I mean, you can't really blame the current JB leaders for this. This rule was made back in 2017:
I didn't. Point to where I said, "The current JB leaders are morons."
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

You obviously didn't say exactly that, but come on, don't play dumb. This is what you said

Why the fuck is this a rule?
All these new JB rules coming out lately are retarded. The gamemode is supposed to be toxic. Wardens are supposed to trick players. You're supposed to be creative. This is taking the fun away from the gamemode.
So fucking stupid.
Who made this a rule?

Now, maybe you didn't mean exactly that, but this is how it reads to everybody else.
  • New rules come out
  • A post is made about a rule
  • You come into the post and say "all these new rules are retarded", "so stupid", and "who made this a rule?"
Is this not belittling to you? Can you legitimately say that this post is not a belittlement of the current administration team? You're fucking joking. You already went nuclear on this post, just admit you misspoke or fucking call out the JB team.
It is absolutely belittling to whomever lazily implemented the rule in question. That was the intention, and was the intention in my later response. I make no secret of that.

Additionally, I was gone for a year for BCT/AIT, so those rules I also consider to be new. Perhaps not to the server, but certainly new to me. That should have been more clear, but I didn't make that connection originally.
If I wanted to say the current JB admin team is 'fucking stupid' and 'retarded,' I would have done so.

I will say it again: That post is not me belittling the current administration. You can read that into my words all you want, that's not what it is.
I already specified what I meant by new in my post. In that sense, I suppose I misspoke, but did not say or intend to say that either JB Divisional-Staff is shit. Both were promoted post roster change. It's too early for that to be determined.

So yes, I can 'legitimately' say this was not directed at the current JB Divisional Staff.

Okay, now on to the more important part of the post.
I appreciate your constructive feedback.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
It is NOT unfair that CTs start with guns and Ts start with guns. I can't tell if you're making fun of my point or just talking about "the nature of the game." T's heavily outnumber CTs, have numerous ways to rebel, and on certain maps these ways to rebel are made extremely easy. At face value, sure it's unfair, but look at the win/loss ratios and tell me it's unfair.

Something being "unfair" inherently means it's not fun. If one side has an extreme handicap because of how a map is structured, that should be limited. A T shouldn't be able to spam knife a teleporter because it is unfair to the CT. What if they didn't rebel to get there? What if it's a freeday and they're waiting behind a portal. What if the other CTs can't "limit the effectiveness" because they had to go somewhere else? It's not good to justify your point using specific scenarios, just like how using anecdotes aren't a good argument; they're easily shut down by another specific scenario or anecdote. A T waiting behind a teleporter is not just a "specific example" this shit happens every single freeday on jailbreak, and more often than not there is not a realistic way to deal with it. A CT could prefire the portal, but if they were to freeshoot someone who just happened to be there they would be 100% at fault, and no person would recommend them to do this for the problem of freekilling/shooting.

I'm also not sure if this is correct, but your gameme account here http://tangoworldwide.gameme.com/playerinfo/150918 shows you have 16 total hours on jailbreak. I hope that isn't right, but you sure do have a lot of strong opinions on this game mode.

tl;dr I respect you going nuclear, taking personal shots at Urbana and basically everyone else, but just know that if you were to NOT go nuclear people would respect your opinion and be more likely to listen to you. You may say "ah idc what people think about me" but if you're going to write a 1000 word response on a gaming forum I would hope you thought it's worth your time.
Yes, I was making fun of the point you had made. My point in saying that is Ts face risks before being able to get to that teleporter and attempt to knife the CTs.
While Ts outnumber the CTs, CTs outgun the Ts, as well as they generally have control of what is going on in the form of warden's orders. Quality > quantity.
I understand that there are some maps in which rebelling is easy, but I can say that there are some in which rebelling is more difficult. Both offset the other. Which then should be considered when making a rule like this? Why have a rule affect maps in which rebelling is hard the same way as those in which it is easy? If the purpose of the rule is to prevent Ts getting an advantage on maps in which rebelling is easy, does that mean it puts them at even more of a disadvantage on maps which are hard?

Again this leads me to admin discretion. There is no rule against an admin telling a player to not camp a teleporter, so why can't they do so when they feel it is appropriate? Why does this have to be wrapped into an all-encompassing rule? It doesn't. If it is difficult to reach this handicap, I do not see the issue with it existing. If a T can rebel, this means the CTs have failed. This is the 'nature' of the game. I personally think a rule restricting this freedom negatively affects the game. I do not have a solution to offer at this time, but the community can certainly come up with one that's better than a rule that affects everyone and everything at all times regardless of situation.

Fuck yes that's correct. I've never made it a secret I absolutely hate Jailbreak as a gamemode. All of those hours are development, testing, or abusing/having fun with players.
That being said, I've run successful Jailbreak servers in multiple games for almost 6 years now. Not playing the game does not make me incapable of analyzing how a rule is structured.
Again, this is why I ask for community feedback. I would rather the community come up with something better, than me go in and remove the rule. I could do that right now, and nobody could reverse it, but what does that achieve? I've not claimed to be an expert, but simply pointed out that this is extremely flawed.

I realize I detract from my credibility by creating a post that is polarizing, but that is how I chose to convey what I was thinking. It was well worth my time, and if people disregard it because they like Urbana and don't like that I took a dig at him, they're being willfully ignorant.

And yes, I give 0 fucks about what people think about me.



Ty for the wall of text, you still responded poorly. Change my mind.  :lul:

EDIT: Do I think the rule is stupid? Yes... but you still responded like a child.
You are absolutely welcome. I hope I kept you entertained for a minute or two. I certainly enjoyed writing it.
My response evoked other responses. That was the intention. It has succeeded. You may not like my method, that is your choice. I don't fucking care, that is my choice.
"We the people face unconstitutional lies. In greed we trust, in revolution we die."
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